“The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of ‘liberalism’ they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened.”

Socialist Party presidential candidate Norman Thomas

Tuesday, October 02, 2007

Schools are for learning, and learning only

My opinions on this will probably surprise you...

(CBS) OAK LAWN, Ill. A southwest suburban school district has taken action, responding to the concerns of a Muslim parent.

But now, as CBS 2's Suzanne Le Mignot reports, other parents are angry that traditional school holidays will be renamed or even eliminated.

"That does not represent all the Muslims, all of the Arabs at that school," said Qais Nofel, the father of a student in Ridgeland School District 122.

There was some heated discussion between parents outside Columbus Manor Elementary School in Oak Lawn on Friday. The thought of no more traditional holiday celebrations has many parents really upset.

For now, children in Ridgeland School District 122 will celebrate fall festival instead of Halloween and winter festival instead of Christmas.

OK, point 1, the last thing I want is the dreadful government education system indoctrinating my kid into State-approved religious thought. Schools are for learning and learning only. Schools do an abysmal job of teaching as it is. They shouldn't be distracting the kids with silly holiday celebrations of any kind. Teachers should teach the curricula, and I will celebrate holidays at home where that kind of thing belongs.

The question of which religious practice should be acceptable in schools is like asking your boss what meat is allowed to be grilled in the office conference room. Answer: NONE! No religious practices should be allowed in any government school. They are there to learn and that is all. If Muslim kids want to pray like 14 times a day, then send them to private schools or home-school them.

Point 2.....I don't really have a point 2. I did an excellent job of summing up my thoughts in a single point.


Kevin said...

Ok i can see renaming holidays such as Christmas or Easter, those are religion specific. But Thanksgiving?! Thats a national holiday that should not be renamed. Halloween? Its a festival that gives children a reason to dress up like a dead person and eat candy. While we are at it, lets rename Labor Day because that offends those who don't have a job, and besides, for them, every day is labor day. Veterans day? That could offend those who are opposed to war. Valentines Day? That offends those who aren't in love. I mean everything offends someone, why can't people just get over it and start living their life. Holidays should be celebrated at home, not at school, yes, but to rename it is ridiculous.

Oh and about the praying 12 times a day. At my high school, Muslims did indeed get breaks to pray everyday in their own room. They could actually miss classes, tests, etc. to pray 12 times a day, and it was excused. I agree with you Ed, go to a private school or get home schooled.

Ed said...

Multiculturalism will destroy this country if we let it. We are not a Muslim country. We already have a culture of our own. If you don't like our culture....go away!

Kevin said...


David said...

You REALLY need to get your hands on Rand's "The New Left: The Anti-capitalist Mentality". As I've said, I misplaced my copy but I skimmed through one at the local B&N yesterday and Rand's ideas are eerily accurate. (She published it in 1971.) I did not purchase it as I thought $17 was too much for a paperback but I will get a copy soon.

Go to the Ayn Rand website for a glimpse.

David said...

Ed, here's a teaser for you: the TOC from "The New Left".

The ones that caught my eye this second time around were:
Apollo and Dionysus
Global Balkanization
Multicultural Nihilism
Gender Tribalism

Table of Contents

Introduction by Peter Schwartz
Foreward to the First Edition

The Schools
The Cashing-In: The Student "Rebellion"
The Chickens' Homecoming
The Comprachicos

The Culture
Apollo and Dionysus
The "Inexplicable Personal Alchemy"
The Age of Envy

The Politics
The Left: Old and New
>From a Symposium
"Political" Crimes
Global Balkanization
Gender Tribalism by Peter Schwartz

The Anti-Industrial Revolution
The Philosophy of Privation by Peter Schwartz
Multicultural Nihilism by Peter Schwartz
The Anti-Industrial Revolution

ed said...

Thanks David. I'll check it out.

Joe Camel said...

ed: I disagree. Religous holidays ( Easter and Christmas) are and should be acceptable inour schools. All our basic tenets and beliefs stem from documents written by Christian men as they founded this country to escape religous persecution. The founding fathers did not want to worship "the church of England", they did not found the country to escape God. Therefore, I say that these 2 specific religous holidays need to be preserved on school calendars. If we allow them to be renamed and subjugated, all we are doing is allowing multiculturalism to propulgate.

ed said...

I agree in principle Joe, however; to allow one religion to be recognized is to allow all kooky religions to be recognized. It's stupid since it's our culture but, that's how the seperation laws are interpreted. My point is that I would rather do away with all religious recognition rather than subject my child to Wicken, Islam, Hari Krishna, Moony, or whatever in the interest of fairness and diversity.

I recognize that it's not right but the reality is that's how it will play out: if you allow one, you have to allow all.

Bobby T said...

Seperation laws were set up for a division between church and state, not church and school. Ed, when you were a young boy, coming thru elementary school, I guess that your school had an open recital of the pledge of allegiance every morning. Our people were deeply patriotic and devoted to this country. Over time that process has been eliminated. Notice how we now have huge anti-American issues from our own people. I know that there will always be differing opinions on all matters, but I have to say that I find it troublesome to witness the current demise of our society from within. Therefore, to make my point, if these holidays are changed, and therefore we allow the meaning to change, we are completing the undermining of our basic fundamentals. Besides, the Muslims will not stand for non-Muslims getting a free day on their holidays if their policies ae not being observed. I'll bet, if checked out, in areas where there is a Muslim vs. other issue, people are always killed surrounding the Muslim holidays. Fanaticism will not change. All we do by allowing our holidays to be changed is to take 1 step closer to allowing them to take over. If you are scared of that, as I think you are, then accepting 2 christian holidays is a small price to pay. Since religion cannot be taught in public school, this is all that is left to fight for. Go read John Gibson's "The War on Christmas". It will open your eyes.

Kevin said...

Bobby T you said "Seperation laws were set up for a division between church and state, not church and school."

Now ask yourself this, "Who pays for public schools?" That comes out of our tax dollars that we pay to the state. Furthermore, Joe Camel, you claim that our ancestors came here to escape Religious persecution. Well then you could make the same argument for many immigrants who come to this country. They come to escape persecution, and when we celebrate one religious holiday and do not allow for them to do the same, we are persecuting them. Also, America has no Official religion so to have public schools celebrate one and not the other would suggest that that school has an official religion, and if it is a public school, then that violates the rights of the children who do not practice the official religion.

Bobby T said...

Kevin: Any religous holiday that is observed in this country is a Christian holiday not a sect (Baptist, Catholic, Methodist, etc.). This country was founded by Christian men on Christian beliefs. These intelligent men knew that eventually other religous beliefs would be present in the country, and therefore they chose to avoid any conflict by keeping the church and the government apart (hence the problems they left in England with the state sponsored Official religion). They did not seperate education from the church, specifically, so that the same Christian beliefs used to establish this country, as written in the constitution, could be ingrained into the next generation and generations to come.
Yes, tax dollars pay for education. Always have always will. That has nothing to do with seperating the forming of laws and running the government from the teaching of the young folks.

Kevin, as for your retort to JC's point, well you are off base. When someone chooses to come to this country, and to espouse to become a citizen, they are required by the constitution to study and learn the ways of America. This does not limit their beliefs, but existing customs and practices also do not infringe on them. They are not limited from worshipping on their holidays, they are just not registered as governmental holidays. The issue at hand here is how these holidays are refferred to by the USA on its calendars. I contend that if someone is offended by the celebration of Easter or Christmas, too bad. I find no offense in a person celebrating Yom Kippur or Ramadan, I just do not participate. Many stores in this country offer products and services for specific religions I am not a party of. I do not purchase them, and find no offense in the sale or display of same. Why should others find offense in the Christian items and services, then. It is because they know that the Christians will roll over and acquiesce to their demands. You say you don't want the country to be given to the Muslims, well isn't that what you are suggesting when you allow this.

Kevin, the question, coming full circle is this: If you are a Christian, how can you stand aside and allow your country to be denegrated? If you are not a Christian, how can you support the alteration of a holiday name just for the sake of appeasement of a certain religous group?

Kevin said...

I'm not saying we should rename Religious holidays for the sake of appeasing a religious group. The question at hand was whether or not to change the name of the holiday the school provides. In that instant, it should be changed. Saying that the children are on Christmas break is wrong. Not all children celebrate Christmas, and have a right to be offended by that. And yes the pilgrims came here to escape the Church of England, and yes they built our nation upon Christian beliefs, but they did not force their religion upon everyone else who immigrated here. When a school only recognizes one religion's holidays, and doesn't recognize other religious holidays, that school is forcing one religion upon their youth.

Reid said...

Children don't celebrate Labor Day, since they are not in the work force, but still get that day off from school, and nobody complains. Easter, Christmas, Halloween, etc. are cultural traditions from long ago. Sometimes breaking with tradition is important, because it is the right thing to do. Here all that is happening is a bunch of spineless nitwits pushing pencils to mollycoddle a bunch of whiners. I am somewhat surprised that you would stand for this.

Joe Camel said...

By the way, gents if we start allowing these american traditional holidays to be renamed then we are accepting Multiculturalism

Kevin said...

They aren't going to be renamed. School holidays aren't going to be called Christmas Break or Thanksgiving Break but rather fall and winter break. Can you guys not understand that?

Joe Camel said...

That is renaming the holiday. Can't you understand that?

Kevin said...

No. It is renaming the reason why schools are out. In the older days, when a school got out, it was referred to as Christmas break. Now its winter break. The actual holiday, the optimal word being day, is still called Christmas day, schools and teachers aren't allowed to talk about it. Thats the only difference.

Robert Underwood said...

Your mind was garbled by the public education you received from those same teachers that cannot "talk" about Christmas. The reason is and should be the holiday. It should be noted from your earlier comments that "Thanksgiving" is not a national holiday. It was originally a religous holiday set aside to thank the good Lord for all the blessings he had bestowed on the pilgrims. They were after all a very religous bunch. I guess you were given a slanted view of that in your public schooling. Sometimes we are all bitten by the hand that feeds us. In this case, about "Religion" and "School", in my opinion, one must choose carefully - there are many veiled issues hidden within. Note that as of 10/03/07 on a lawsuit filed in California, the complaintant is trying to have all holidays removed from the school calender. A subtext buried deep in the lawsuit forces the school to also eliminate any "suggestive" clothings about all religion. That takes out any thing with a cross, etc. Jewelry is now subject to inspection; tatoos; books; virtually anything associated with a kid at school.This is scary and could get worse. Think about your stance and where it leads.

Ed said...

The bottom line is this: Christmas and Halloween celebrations in schools, regardless of appropriatness of venue, are part of our unique American culture. That being said, diversity and inclusivity are the watch-words for modern government educators.

Joe Camel is right in that denying, or watering down, our own culture is equal to embracing multiculturalism.

For argument's sake, let's assume the school is an appropriat place for holiday celebrations in the first place, I'm in favor of keeping with our American cultural traditions and anybody who doesn't like it can take a long walk on a short pier. Muslims have to accept, no embrace, our culture or leave. But that's not how government educators think. They are card-carrying multiulturalists for whom diversity, inclusivity, and self-esteem carry much more weight than learning. I would rather not celebrate anything than subject my kid to watered-down, touchy-feely, multicultural celebrations where other cultures take precedence over ours

Kevin said...

Well as long as public school children take a Christmas break, there will always be people complaining. Bottom line. There are way too many people out there who aren't Christians, or have any religious affiliation for that matter, who will complain because a calendar says Christmas break on it. I don't feel as though calling it winter break is watering down our culture. The children who celebrate Christmas aren't going to notice that they are out of school for winter break mainly because when they go home, they celebrate Christmas. The malls still sell Christmas things, and there will still be parking lot vendors selling trees. It really doesn't matter for those children whether or not it says Christmas Break on the school calendar. For those who don't celebrate Christmas, this may be a big deal to them, how can we honestly say that they are silly for complaining about it, when we don't know what its like to walk in their shoes.
My point is this: We, as a country, embrace immigrants (legal anyways) with open arms. Our founding fathers decided not have an official language, nor an official religion, and the people who come here and complain about it, well they are the consequences of those decisions. There really isn't much we can do about the complaints besides appease them. I'm not saying I like it, but thats the way it is.