HIGHLANDS RANCH – The issue of being transgender usually pops up with students in high school. However, a 3rd grade boy wants to dress as a girl and wants teachers and students to address him with a girl's name.
The student had attended this same school in years prior, but had left to go to classes in another district for about two years. The transgender student will be returning to what is the child's home school. Dave M. thinks classmates will recognize the change.
Teachers are planning to address the student by name instead of using he or she. The child will not use the regular boys or girls bathroom. Instead, two unisex bathrooms in the building will be made available. The school is handing out packets to parents who have questions. The packets contain information about people who are transgender.
If you are a discerning reader, you probably are asking yourself, why are they using the term "transgender" when the 9 year old did not have a sex change? Why aren't they using the term "transvestite" instead? Well, astute reader, I'll tell you...because transvestites are men who CHOOSE to wear womens' clothes, while the term "transgendered" implies that it's not a choice, but the person is trapped in the body of the opposite sex. The author of the article wants you to think that men who prance around in womens' clothes are comletely normal and they didn't choose to be cross-dressers.
This is in a public school people! Third graders being indoctrinated into believing that literally any perversion is the norm and should not only NOT be judged, but embraced.
Public school educators find absolutely nothing abnormal about this. Does this look normal to you?
32 comments:
School counseling? Psychiatry? Homosexual? Can a third grader be homosexual? What has gotten into these teachers and administrators? Do you know why we shouldn't treat this boy like normal boys and girls? Because he isnt normal! That behavior is abnormal, and for those of you who don't know, abnormal means opposite of normal. I'm sorry but if i went to school with that kid, i would probably make fun of him... until he graduates from high school and goes to work at a women's clothing store full time.
And don't forget federal courts have ruled that parents don't have the right to "dictate curriculum". They can teach six year olds about homosexuality or tell high schoolers to compromise their beliefs (even Biblical teachings) in order to diversify.
Kevin -
What has gotten into these teachers and administrators?
I would say the answer to your question is the nauseating liberals at the NEA.
Who knows if the kid is gay or not, or if he just likes womens' clothes. At 9, you can't tell. Only as he approaches sexual maturity can one determine orientation. Until this kid reaches adulthood and chooses to have a gender reassignment surgery, he remains a dude and must dress like one.
What kills me is this kid's indulgent parents who don't say, "Life blows kiddo....now put on some pants!"
Exactly! The parents are idiots for allowing it.
I homeschool one of my kids (and will my youngest) and I have teachers telling me how messed up he will be because I'm denying him the public school experience. I politely remind them that I have another son who goes to the public school freak show which sadly is full of messed up kids - they usually shut up.
Homosexuality is not promoted in schools, niether is Transexuality, the same as Illness is not promoted.(no one wants to become Ill, just as no one wants to be a Trans-person or gay earlie in life.) School administrators Teachers and perents are recognizing very serouse issues with those few kids who can not ignore the fact of the matter, just as you can not ignore a heart problem, it will not go away and the trearment is clear for these Transsexual kids to address the issues as soon as possible.
The feeling of "not belonging" trying to fit in feeling like a lier trying to be a boy or girl according to genitalia is insane.
Ask yourself this are you male or female because of your genitalia, proof positive male and female brains are wired differently from the first 3 months of pregnancy and has nothing to do with personal choice, the children who are able to articulate their feelings to parents and teachers hurt enough to say something and those truly caring people very often do as much as possible to help, including the attempt to "straighten out" these kids.
God bless those who help these hurting people find their way through the very scary maze of Transition. These children need as much help and support as possible from parents teachers school administrators and their government. I don't get it why it's so difficult for people to see the fact of the matter here.
The bible dose not say I will love you if.
really love how some people throw around the word "normal" come on show me one person that is "normal" and Ill point out ten things that makes them "abnormal" to someone else view. so welcome to the "abnormal" human race which in a since makes it "normal"
just who is this alittle boy hurting by dressing and acting like a girl? so I take it you would force this kid to conform to your standard of how a boy or girl should act and dress right? ok so lets force the kid and he may fake conforming, now they have to deal with hateing thems for feeling this way and the guilt of hideing it. then comes the teen years when thier body start changing in way not the way they feel they should be. now Im talking about transsexual childern here but the rest here applies to any trans person. do you know that the suicide rate for trans teens is the highest of all teen suicides. why is that? because some closed minded people cant accept that maybe it could be true. guess you have no clue that 1 in 20 people are trans in some way, and of them 1 in 3 are transsexual. I know I know you say bullstuff, well being trans myself I know alot of trans people and if you met them on the street you would have no ideal, all out "manly man" married most likely with kids but still likes putting on a dress or whatever.
ways seem like the people that yell the loudest about something has thier own issues. come on tell us what color is the dress hanging in your closet?
Why are insults, stereotypes and prejudice your first reaction to something you don't understand, or need more information about? This is a CHILD we're discussing here, not some pawn to be moved around to suit yours or anyone else's political or social agenda.
The fact of the matter is that there is a GREAT deal of evidence that gender identity in ALL people is formed by age 4. That it is completely separate from anatomical sex (those most they match to one degree or another) and that is has NOTHING to do with sexual orientation.
You have no idea of the pain these children experience when they are not supported and loved for who they are rather than for who others want them to be. This is not an illusion, or a whim, or an obsession. These children are not crossdressers or transvestites. CD's & TV's do what they do occasionally for various reasons. This child does not want to switch back and forth...this child identifies as female.
You can not "beat the girl" out of her or psychologically abuse her into being what you might consider "normal". And if you endorse teasing, humiliating or bullying these children in school, then quite frankly, you will be an accessory to their potential suicide...which 50% of gender non-conforming children at least consider doing.
Just because YOU don't understand it does not make it wrong, anti-Biblical or the work of Satan.
If you'd like more accurate information about this issue as it relates to children, then please contact our organization. If not, then please at least do not continue to assume you understand this enough to endorse and inflict further abuse, intolerance and psychological harm on this child, her family and others like them.
Respectfully,
Jenn Burleton
Executive Director
TransActive Education & Advocacy
transeducate@comcast.net
Dawn,
Homosexuality IS promoted in public schools. The NEA promotes it under the guise of safety. I'm sure you know there are many cases where homsexuality is being pushed in classrooms.
Here's the thing... school is for learning - reading writing science etc - not this garbage. Teachers and administrator should have no obligation to iron out this nonsense. If kids have issues the parent needs to take them to someone in the appropriate profession for help. Schools shouldn't be catch alls - and they can't accomodate everyone. If public school isn't a good fit for the child then the child shouldn't be there. I don't know why everyone thinks society owes them so much or wants the government to take care of everything for them.
I 'don't believe a gay person is anymore a sinner than the preacher, and I didn't say I wouldn't love someone if they we gay. Should i tell my kids living together is no longer a sin just because it's socially acceptable?
Debra - I think you have the right to think whatever you want on the subject. You might be a very nice guy/gal. But I don't have to teach my kids that it's right. Why do I have to think like you? Who is the one who is closed minded?
Jenn,
If you would like more accurate information about what I advocate for my children you may contact me. I would appreciate it if you would refrain from causing further psychologial harm to children like mine by pushing your beliefs on the rest of the world. Public school does not endorse my beliefs - why should they yours?
So, let me get this straight...
Little children are blank slates who have absolutely no morals. If they're not indoctrinated in morals (including using corporal punishment, when necessary,) the bad stuff will leak in and take root, and then you end up with a 'spoiled' child, right?
Then with all that teasing/tormenting/hazing/bullying that goes on by 'normal' children towards 'abnormal' children, and with the documented abuses of fathers who tried to 'beat the gay' or 'beat the girl' out of an 'abnormal' child, why do we still have around 5% of school children fall into your definition of 'abnormal'?
Around 7% of God's Children are gay/lesbian. Around 3% are at least mildly transgendered, and are not naturally either ideally he-men or ladylike women. 0.2% are strongly transgendered, and will transition, or die trying.
Transgenders know at an early age that 'sumthin' ain't right'. No transgender to my knowledge has ever told her or his personal story where they couldn't make up their minds, or that they changed their minds even once. They always wanted to be.
But bigots like the ones here made them hide that part of themselves, for their own personal safety.
I was like that. Didn't want to be the boy society and an abusive step-father told me my penis made me. But showing any female behavior set of a fury of effemimania in those tho believed as the bigots who have posted here do that this could be beat out of me.
I hid that side of me as best I could. Are you happy? Even though I've yet to 'sleep' with a man, I've been accused throughout my adult life of being a F@##&^, just because, try thought I might, my true nature would show through the carefully crafted facade.
I finally faced myself and transitioned, no thanks to the bigots.
The corollary is that you can't recruit/indoctrinate/turn a cisgendered boy or girl to transsexuality, just as you can't 'make' someone gay or lesbian. If your son or daughter is not transgendered, you can only instill your anxiety and hostility in someone already likely to nurture your hatred.
According to the studies cited by Harvard Researcher Steven Pinker in his book, "The Blank Slate" 25% of your child's personality comes genetically from each parent. Of the other fifty percent, at least 40% comes from influences outside the home such as peer groups and whether the child is growing up during a time of war or prosperity. The studies quoted in that book found that less than 10% of the child's personality could be attributed to the manner in which the parents raised the child. So at conception, the bulk of your and your wife's work of instilling morals are pretty much done.
If they turn out transgendered, they'll learn real fast that they must hide it from you. You will take credit for 'raising 'em right', when they turn out straight and happy in their assigned gender, and blame them when you finally find out they're not straight like you.
Well, with God cranking out a steady 10% of His children who will be found to 'choose an abominable lifestyle', I think that the bigot homophobes and transphobes will have a measure of lifetime job security.
Hazumu Usaragi
What did I miss? Who said anything about beating children or corporal punishment?
Public schools promote science.
Information that is confimed by experts who study teh field at hand.
Whichever subject.
When 99% of all data, Doctors, and studdies show that transgender people are born that way, it is not a debate.
You can ask people to teach that the world is flat in our classrooms if you want, but nobody is going to go for it.
It doesn't matter if the science is inconvenient for your beliefs, it is testable, and reproduceable.
There is nothing in the bible that says anyting about Transgender people.
Tons, and tons of people's first hand experience disagree with your prsonal opinion.
And you have no personal experience with this issue unless you, or someone close to you is Transgender.
A four year old does not "choose" to be a different gender. They do not "learn" it. they are born that way.
Everyone who has experienced that can confirm that.
And yet you are going to call all them all liers?
These people are unrelated to each other and yet have exactly the same experience.
I'm sorry if that's inconvienient for you.
But your own delusional opinion does not represent actual demonstrated reality.
To quote Kevin:
"I'm sorry but if i went to school with that kid, i would probably make fun of him... until he graduates from high school and goes to work at a women's clothing store full time."
And he is by no means alone in that attitude.
Debra:
Homosexuality is not promoted in schools. However the right to not be bullied, abused, humiliated, tormented or physically assaulted for being gay, lesbian or bisexual SHOULD be taught in schools.
Most decent people don't look the other way when youth abuse people who are black, brown, yellow, red or white. We don't silently endorse Christians in discriminating against Muslims, Buddhists or Jews, or vice-versa. We won't tolerate sexual harassment of men against women, or vice-versa. And yet, when anyone tries to enlighten others that it's NOT OK to physically or emotionally do harm to these children through teasing, bullying and violence it's considered "promoting homosexuality".
If attempting to protect children who are different with regards to either their gender expression or sexual orientation through education is considered "promoting homosexuality", then you are endorsing the existing abuse, humiliation, discrimination and physical violence as acceptable methods of disapproving of a person being gender non-conforming or gay.
And just to be clear...GENDER IDENTITY EXPRESSION has absolutely nothing to do with someone's sexual orientation. All gay men are not 'feminine' and all gay women are not 'masculine'. All transgender people are not gay and all gay people are not transgender.
A person's gender identity (yours, mine, everyone's!) is developed and fixed YEARS prior to any of us having a sense of who we are attracted to.
As you stated, school is for learning. It's for learning not just reading, writing, math and science, but for learning how best we can all live together on this planet. It's for teaching, hopefully, mutual respect for each other even if we happen to disagree on things.
Schools, along with family and faith institutions, should be about teaching that preying on the weakest among us is a sign of fear, ignorance, self-righteousness and the worst kind of oppression.
This child's life is NOT nonsense. This family's struggle with making the world a safer place for their child is NOT garbage.
You said that if public school wasn't a good fit for this child, then perhaps she shouldn't be there. Okay. Which other children should be removed from public school if it's not a good fit?
A black child in an all-white Idaho community? A Muslim child in a predominantly Baptist southern town? A white child in a majority Latino school in southern Arizona? A Down's Syndrome child mainstreamed into a public middle school?
Or is it ONLY the children who's sense of their own gender identity conflicts with your sense of what is a "good fit"?
I don't believe these parents or their child thinks society or the government owes them anything more or LESS than it provides to other families and their children. Those being, a safe and nurturing place to attend school and grow up without fear of being beaten, humiliated and bullied simply because they are different in some way from other children. Is that really asking for something "extra"?
I am curious with regards to your comment that the work we do in supporting these families and children is "pushing beliefs" and "causing psychological harm" to your children and the rest of world.
Why do you feel that "our beliefs" are so much more influential and powerful than your beliefs?
These children are a TINY minority living in a world filled with children, adults, media representations, cultural affirmations and history that pushes upon them EVERY DAY OF THEIR LIVES that having a gender that matches their anatomy is the "normal" way to be. Parents disapprove, teachers disapprove, pastors disapprove, peers disapprove and yet...somehow, THEY don't succumb and get indoctrinated into all THAT. Even though it is clearly the path of least pain, depression, humiliation and abuse.
Why is it that the threat of these kids "corrupting" your children is so feared, when these children are clearly able, under great adversity, to remain true to who they are.
Perhaps it's because ALL of our children are going to be themselves, good or bad depending on your perspective, no matter WHAT we do about it. The only thing we CAN impact to some great degree, is how they feel about themselves through that process.
I'm not asking you to endorse my beliefs or share them. I'm only asking you to respect them, and these children and their families...and to put as much effort into understanding this issue as I have put into understanding and respecting your religious beliefs.
To: Freedom2Learn;
There are those who advocate that, if a transgendered child is found to be at a school, that the inclination of bullies to harass the child should not be abated -- that 'nature should take its course', and the harassment should be allowed to happen in order to 'make' the transgender child give up her ways.
“I suggest, indeed, letting children who wish go to school in clothes of the opposite sex - but not counseling other children to not tease them or hurt their feelings.
On the contrary, don’t interfere, and let the other children ridicule the child who has lost that clear boundary between play-acting at home and the reality needs of the outside world. Maybe, in this way, the child will re-establish that necessary boundary.
It is a mistake for various interfering, ignorant and biased busybodies to try to ‘counsel’ the other children into accepting the abnormal. It is very healthy to be able to draw the line between what is healthy and what is sick.”
Joseph Berger
NARTH Scientific Advisory Member
www.narth.com
People don't keep pit bulls because they are nice, loving dogs, but because they can be mean and vicious to others without getting the owner in (too much) trouble.
"beating children or corporal punishment" has been implied in previous posts by for example calling the parents 'indulgent' (thus weak and unable to carry out their parental duties), and by other 'dog whistle' statements.
The presence of the transgender child will incite the bullies. Curb them, and protect the transgender child from the harm they will inflict.
The transgender child will NOT recruit or 'turn' other children -- if they're transgender, they're ALREADY transgender -- you can't catch it, it catches you.
Ms. Hazumu Usaragi
Hey - I really do want to discuss this with you folks - I don't have time right now but I hope you stick around for a while.
Real quick though.....
beating children or corporal punishment" has been implied in previous posts by for example calling the parents 'indulgent' (thus weak and unable to carry out their parental duties), and by other 'dog whistle' statements.
Are you serious? This is code for "beat the kid"??
I said something about "permissive parents" one time. Does that mean something as well?
I do not beieve in hitting kids for any reason but I think parents are commonly both permissive and indulgent.
Look, to be clear, I do not advocate nor condone the hazing, harassment, or ridicule of a kid for being different. Nor do I have anything against TG's, gays, CD's, Q's, or TS's(sorry if I didn't cover all the permutations) as people. They should be treated with the same respect and consideration as everybody else. But they don't deserve special status and special rules because they feel different. Like Debra said, everybody has differences. I'm 1/4 Chinese...should I demand that the school cafeteria serve rice and provide chopsticks every day?
What if this kid decides that as a girl "he" should be allowed to grow his hair longer than the code permits boys to have it? Then why can't all kids wear their hair any way they want? If this boy wears a dress, who says another kid can't wear a burlap sack and galoshes to school? Why can't all kids dress any way they want? See, if you make exceptions for one kid, you introduce chaos and the next thing you know your school is one big social experiment and no learning takes place....but then that's the idea with you liberals isn't it? Who cares if the kids are dumber than a sack of doorknobs as long as they have high self esteem?
And another thing...for this kid to reflexively associate being female with wearing a dress, I would think, would have to be insulting to some of you...I mean as feminists. Why can't he wear jeans to school like most other girls and go by Wynona or whatever when he gets home? Why does he have to wear a dress? If his parents want to indulge his feminine ideas by letting him wear pumps and pearls at home, that's their business but it'll be too disruptive to allow that kind of expression in the 3rd grade...or any grade for that matter.
F2L is right, school is not the place for this.
just so you all know...ed and i often do not agree on some of his postings. i work in an area where we see children who are born with conditions that do not clearly define their anatomy as discreetly male or female. there genitalia may say one thing but their chromosomes say something else. not so many years in the past, parents were given the choice of surgically altering their children to "appear" male or female depending on what was easier surgically to achieve. we now know that "boys" will be boys and "girls" will be girls no matter what their genitalia appear to be. to force anyone into a specific gender identity is morally wrong. we should all be lucky enough that our identity is clearly defined but unfortunately that is not always the case. sorry ed. i can't side with you on this one
Ed's wife - do you have any statistics on how many kids are actually trans gender vs. confusion? The only way to know would be to test them right?
I'm certainly not an expert but i do believe there are people as you described and people who are born gay - but I also believe there are a lot who are that way as a result of lifestyle/circumstance/choice. Some of these people are talking about "mildly transgender" How does that work? Are chromosomes strictly boy or girl or is there an in between?
Jenn said
"I don't believe these parents or their child thinks society or the government owes them anything more
or LESS than it provides to other families and their children. Those being, a safe and nurturing place to attend school and grow up without fear of being beaten, humiliated and bullied simply because they are different in some way from other children. Is that really asking for something "extra"?
But....
The bathrooms that need to be made available is MORE - the packets - and I'm sure some sort of training for school staff. The accomodations that are made for every child and their cause are astounding. It's no wonder our public schools don;t perform well.
No, I wouldn;t try to mainstream a down's child. I dont think it is fair to anyone - especially the down's child. If I had a child with some sort of special needs I wouldn't make them try to fit in a place like a public school. Public schools aren't easy for most kids.
"If attempting to protect children who are different with regards to either their gender expression or sexual orientation through education is considered "promoting homosexuality", then you are endorsing the existing abuse, humiliation, discrimination and physical violence as acceptable methods of disapproving of a person being gender non-conforming or gay."
I am in no way endorsing abuse of these kids or ANY kids. This is what irritates me - if I don't agree with your way of thinking then I am to blame for the mistreatment of kids. I would NEVER mistreat someone because of their sexuality.
I teach my kids to treat everyone as a human being - regardless of any differences. Teach kids not to hate - period. We don't need to introduce third graders to this.
I'm glad that we're having what I hope is a dialogue about this, rather than a diatribe on either side.
Ed, you said:
"They should be treated with the same respect and consideration as everybody else. But they don't deserve special status and special rules because they feel different."
Here is the "special status" that this child and their family seek. That their child be allowed to attend school expressing the gender she identifies with. And that the school make every effort to educate administrators, faculty and staff on this issue so that they can do their best to insure a safe environment for not only this child, but all children, including future transgender children who will be attending the school.
Ed said:
"I'm 1/4 Chinese...should I demand that the school cafeteria serve rice and provide chopsticks every day?"
Are those what you consider the defining characteristics of your Chinese heritage? What if you had said; "I'm 1/4 black...should I demand that the school serve watermelon and provide do-rags every day?"
Bad analogy, Ed.
Ed also said:
"What if this kid decides that as a girl "he" should be allowed to grow his hair longer than the code permits boys to have it?"
You're missing the point, Ed. This child's gender identity is female...not male. The child will attend school as a girl. Of COURSE she can grow her hair any way she wants to...as can boys, by the way. This isn't 1966 Ed. It's 2008.
Ed said:
"If this boy wears a dress, who says another kid can't wear a burlap sack and galoshes to school? Why can't all kids dress any way they want?"
You're not paying attention, Ed. This child has a female gender identity. If some random child sees a girl in class wearing a dress and decides, for some reason, to want to attend school in a burlap sack and galoshes, well then, the administrators will need to address that. In the more than 20 instances in which we've facilitated these transitions for school age children, nothing of the sort has happened. Zip. Zero. Zilch. No confusion from the other kids. No interruption in the learning process. And for the record, I don't have a problem with children dressing the way they want, so long as it's appropriate attire for attending school. That rule should apply to all children. This little girl and her family have no interest whatsoever in sending her to school in anything but school appropriate attire.
Ed said:
"the next thing you know your school is one big social experiment and no learning takes place....but then that's the idea with you liberals isn't it? Who cares if the kids are dumber than a sack of doorknobs as long as they have high self esteem?"
Well, so much for having a 'dialogue' rather than a diatribe. Random generalizations, stereotypes and name calling. I'm not going to bite, Ed.
School has ALWAYS been a social experiment. That is part of its purpose! Each new class comes together for the first time to learn ways in which to work with other people, to learn that there are many different kinds of people, to learn to share, compete, listen, communicate, overcome fears and take on new challenges. This all occurs within the process of learning to read, write, add, subtract, multiply and divide. Our children are prepared for the workplace and the world at school as well as at home.
For some reason, you assume to know that I and others who support these children are "liberals" (which is not a 4-letter word) simply because we respect this child and her family on this issue. How narrow minded and judgmental.
And while you attempt to belittle the value of self-esteem, you should understand that NO CHILD, regardless of their gender identity, will do well in school if they don't have healthy self-esteem.
If you want to look at the source of bad education, look at lack of federal funding, mis-managed education programs and "No Child Left Behind". That ought to keep you busy long enough to get off this child's back.
Ed said:
"for this kid to reflexively associate being female with wearing a dress, I would think, would have to be insulting to some of you...I mean as feminists."
Please do not even attempt to paint yourself as being sympathetic to feminist thinking or politics. If you think feminism is all about skirts vs. pants, then you are lost in the weeds, Ed.
It was the writer that wrote the story in the most attention getting way possible..."a boy wants to wear a dress!" I'm certain that like any of the other girls in school, this child will wear pants on some days, skirts on some days and dresses on some days. It's not ABOUT the dress...it's about the freedom to express herself as a girl. Are you a man simply BECAUSE you wear pants?
Ed...I sense that you feel threatened by this in some way. I'm not going to pretend to understand how or why. That is your issue to work out. But please do not let your own misogynistic attitudes towards femininity and masculine insecurity lead to joining the chorus of intolerance and ignorance directed at this child and her family.
Work on your personal issues and let them work on theirs. It's all going to be OK. Honest.
"" The child will attend school as a girl. ""
Will the other children in the class know or understand that she has male genitalia?
What about in the other 20 instances?
"And that the school make every effort to educate administrators, faculty and staff on this issues........If you want to look at the source of bad education, look at lack of federal funding, mis-managed education programs."
When we have every parent with a special circumstance demanding schools make provisions for them it costs a bundle.
F2L
To answer your question about what the other children know...how does the child in question or her parents "know" what genitalia each of the other children in the class have? For that matter, how do any of us "know" for certain what genitalia the people we meet and pass on the street every day have?
The answer is, we don't...but then again, we don't need to. Most people "assume" they do and afford them the respect they deserve based upon their gender expression.
If you had to bet your most valuable possession on the fact that everyone you know (casually, personally, professionally) has genitalia that 'matches' their gender identity expression, would you take that bet?
Genitals do not make a person who they are. Who we are is a result of what's between our ears, not what's between our legs.
You asked the following questions:
"...do you have any statistics on how many kids are actually trans gender vs. confusion? The only way to know would be to test them right?"
Approx. 1:250 children born are gender non-conforming in some way. That doesn't mean that all of them end up transitioning from their assigned birth gender to another gender identity, but estimates are that at least 25% of those will.
"Confusion" doesn't really play a role here. While they may not all identify as transgender, many children just do not experience or express themselves in a gender conforming way. This does not make them "confused", it simply makes them different.
As for testing...the ONLY person who can confirm someone's gender identity is the individual who experiences it.
You said:
"I'm certainly not an expert but i do believe there are people as you described and people who are born gay - but I also believe there are a lot who are that way as a result of lifestyle/circumstance/choice."
I've known literally thousands of gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people in my 50+ years. I've not yet met a single one of them who consciously, arbitrarily "chose" their sexual orientation or gender identity. They may choose to stop denying it at some point, but they don't choose to "be" that way as an alternative to being heterosexual or cisgender.
You said:
"Some of these people are talking about "mildly transgender" How does that work? Are chromosomes strictly boy or girl or is there an in between?"
Chromosomes don't have much to do with whether someone is transgender or not. What Ed's wife was describing is children who are 'intersex', which does result from uncommon chromosomal or hormonal processing configurations such as XXY, XYY, Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, Turner Syndrom, etc. There are more than 20 such variations on the more common XX or XY combinations.
For more information on how transgender identity impacts children and youth, please check out our video "Out of The Shadows" at our website:
www.transactiveonline.org
Ok as someone who has recently been to high school, as few as 2 years ago, let me just say that there are still codes about how to dress and how you make yourself out to look. Lets start with ear rings. Girls wear them, and so do guys. However, at school, guys are not allowed to wear them. Now you have someone that is a trans gender, transvestite, trans whatever else, can he now wear earrings? Should he be allowed too? He is anatomically a boy, but emotionally a girl. Which bathroom does he use? I am sorry, but providing a unisex bathroom at schools is not a good idea, AT ALL! So then which bathroom will this person use? When you start mixing genders, bad things happen. Lawsuits, harassment, sex, you name it, it will happen. Furthermore, if a child hits puberty and their body still doesnt know if it is a boy or girl, they need to start figuring it out, and soon.
So are you saying any boy who might have some feminine tendencies or a girl who is a tom-boy is likely "mildly transgender"??
"Approx. 1:250 children born are gender non-conforming in some way. That doesn't mean that all of them end up transitioning from their assigned birth gender to another gender identity, but estimates are that at least 25% of those will."
How would you know how these children are born? A newborn doesn't display sexual tendencies and you said there is no test.
How is being transgender any different than being a pedophile? I'm not asking to be a jerk. I do realize one preys on children and the other doesn't. I mean their (in)ability to control their "desires".
If a student was unknowingly attracted to a transgender it could adversely affect him. It would be disturbing to most adults. If my child was psychologially harmed by the deception who would be responsible? Why is it fair to put the entire school in that situation? And again, why should taxpayers pay for the necessary accommodations?
"Why do you feel that "our beliefs" are so much more influential and powerful than your beliefs?"
I've heard that one before. Atheists love that line. I'm not the least bit worried that your beliefs will influence my child to think like you. But let's be fair if we are going to do this. If you want schools to present evidence that supports your beliefs then present the evidence that is contrary as well.
I'm sick of people acting like we are child beating, bigots committing hate crimes because I believe differently than you do. Look back at the posts. You all see something that isn;t there. Dog whistle statements..... Yeah and
I shouldn't mention that I have a "traditional family" because that would mean I hate gays.
See the hysterical snowballing?
F2L,
You said:
"So are you saying any boy who might have some feminine tendencies or a girl who is a tom-boy is likely "mildly transgender"??
No, I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that they are, to one degree or another, gender non-conforming. Whether or not they identity as "transgender" is up to them to decide. And whether or not they feel the need to take it further in some way than simply being a "feminine" boy or a "masculine" girl is also, known only to them.
I wrote:
"Approx. 1:250 children born are gender non-conforming in some way."
You asked:
"How would you know how these children are born? A newborn doesn't display sexual tendencies and you said there is no test."
Most transgender identified children begin to identify their feelings around age 5 or shortly after beginning school. According to the American Academy of Pediatrics, a child has a sense of their own gender identity by age 2 and their gender identity is pretty well established by age 4 or so.
The numbers come from the fact that the assumption is that a child who expresses a gender non-conforming identity was, at some point, 'born'...and those estimates are cross-referenced against number of births at that same time. It's actually pretty simply statistical analysis.
You asked:
"How is being transgender any different than being a pedophile? I'm not asking to be a jerk. I do realize one preys on children and the other doesn't. I mean their (in)ability to control their "desires"."
Well...you answered your own question. And I respectfully have to tell you that it is the kind of question a "jerk" would ask. One molests children, the other doesn't. That seems to me to be a PRETTY DAMN SIGNIFICANT difference. The question was clearly intended to be prejudicial. Why not ask "How is being transgender any different from being a chocaholic?" No...you wanted to divert the topic somehow to sexual deviation. This is NOT about sex...in any way.
This is not a "desire" any more than your sense of your own female identity is a "desire". Can YOU control feeling like your gender identity? Turn on and off whether or not you feel like a man or a woman, as the case may be? It's no different.
You said:
"If a student was unknowingly attracted to a transgender it could adversely affect him. It would be disturbing to most adults. If my child was psychologially harmed by the deception who would be responsible?"
Well...first of all, transgender is a term that describes something an individual feels or identifies with, it is not who they ARE. They are no more "a transgender" than someone else is "a gay" or someone who is pathologically overweight "a fat".
You know, people are attracted to people all the time that they then need to learn things about. Men are attracted to women who are lesbians, women are attracted to men who are gay, Christians are attracted to atheists and vice versa.
There are transgender children and youth of both genders...so it could be a cisgender him attracted to a transgender her or a cisgender her attracted to a transgender him. If the person who is attracted does not know the person is transgender, then they certainly deserve to know. But just because they find out something they didn't know before, it doesn't mean they will automatically be messed up. And if their sense of their own masculinity or femininity is somehow threatened by it, then that is their issue to work out...it doesn't mean that transgender people should walk around with lavender triangles sewed to their coats so others can identify them.
Who is responsible for the emotional trauma that gender non-conforming children experience every day at the hands of misinformed, homophobic and violent peers, teachers, administrator and yes, parents? Your child may be hurt by many things they will encounter: Broken relationships, peer cruelty, academic or extra-curricular disappointments, etc. Many youth handle this kind of thing MUCH better and more in stride that their parents do...particular if their parents don't reinforce prejudicial and over-reactive behavior towards children and youth who are different in one way or another.
You said:
"Why is it fair to put the entire school in that situation? And again, why should taxpayers pay for the necessary accommodations?"
Schools are, by definition, put in the situation of educating children who come from many different backgrounds and life experiences. You are making a mountain out of a mole hill simply because you have preconceived ideas about this issue.
I'm not sure what accommodations you're referring to that will be so expensive. Most of the in-service and workshop training we provide is free of charge to schools who cannot afford or are unwilling to pay for our services. Other than that...how much more does it cost for a young girl to attend school than a young boy?
I wrote:
"Why do you feel that "our beliefs" are so much more influential and powerful than your beliefs?"
And you said:
"I've heard that one before. Atheists love that line. I'm not the least bit worried that your beliefs will influence my child to think like you. But let's be fair if we are going to do this. If you want schools to present evidence that supports your beliefs then present the evidence that is contrary as well."
I'm sure you've heard the thought expressed before. Repetition doesn't make something invalid. And while atheists may ask that same question, do not assume that everyone asking that question is, by definition, an atheist.
As for presenting "evidence" to the contrary...what "evidence" are you going to present to these children and their families that the WORLD and THEIR ANATOMY doesn't present to them, often oppressively so every minute of every day of their lives? The fact of the matter is that our entire Western culture is steeped in promoting and maintaining binary gender expression extremes. Your point of view doesn't need a special forum or platform. It's already pervasive.
Please trust me. These kids and their families KNOW they aren't approved of...accepted...supported...respected or validated. There are many more of you who don't want to respect and help these kids improve the quality of their lives than there are those of us who are working hard to change all that.
You wrote:
"I'm sick of people acting like we are child beating, bigots committing hate crimes because I believe differently than you do."
I've never said anything of the sort, other than to quote and respond to Kevin's comment that he would be one of the people teasing transgender or gender non-conforming children. These children are beaten, abused, humiliated and worse for who they are. That doesn't mean that YOU personally would encourage or endorse or tolerate anything like that. But please don't be naive about the fact that OTHER people who make the same arguments that you share have committed violence, abuse and terrorization of gender non-conforming people.
F2L:
The 1:250 statistic comes from researching the prevalence of transgender identities in adult populations. Also, while I agree that a newborn child doesn't have any sexuality to speak of, gender identity is a fundamentally different thing than sexual orientation. Think two completely independent axes on a graph. While a child's sexual orientation won't emerge until puberty, most children have a very firm knowledge of their own gender identity by the time they are four years old.
By the way, your comparison of transpeople to pedophiles raises an interesting question: does Godwin's law apply universally to all evil people, or just to Hitler?
@Jenn,
I understand that some kids have genetic problems and in that case, if doctors have determined after genetic testing/counseling, that this "boy" identifies as a girl, or vice/versa, then I don't have a problem with supporting that.....but the article said nothing about any medical issues. It stated only that this 9 year old boy wanted to wear girls clothes to school and that the parents and school were indulging that.
My original post was intended to be critical of the willingness of public educators and indulgent, permissive parents to allow, no encourage, literally any abnormality regardless of appropriatness. And by "abnormality" I mean choices.
FYI...
Just because there may or may not be "genetic" indicators, it does not render a person's sense of their own gender identity irrelevant or a matter of "choice".
As for what the article said, it is arrogant in the extreme to A) Not understand that the family probably did NOT want this story to come out and B) That once it was leaked to the press by a third party, the family should share ANY information at all about their 9-year old child's medical history. Do you think the world is entitled to know the most intimate details about YOUR child's medical history?
Please read below for more in depth information about factors that may affect someone's gender identity. This isn't voodoo.
Nashua Telegraph - Nashua, NH, USA
Local/Regional
Published: Sunday, February 10, 2008
Studies on gender identity disorder
There have been plenty of studies attempting to determine a scientific
"cause" of gender identity disorder. One widely accepted – though
still working theory – is that gender identity is formed even before a
baby is born.
All fetuses start as females. For a male embryo to develop, a Y
chromosome must be gained from the father, and it must contain a
certain gene that tells the embryo to develop male genitalia. Without
this information, the embryo will develop as a female.
Newly formed male testes flood the brain with masculine hormones at
around the third month of pregnancy, a process that repeats itself
several weeks after birth, research shows.
But, some argue, in some fetuses, the hormonal bursts don't occur in
sufficient amounts or at the right time, so the "gender map" – loosely
defined as the template in the brain that codes one's masculinity or
femininity – may not get fully translated.
Studies list several possible causes of a hormone disruption,
including a disorder in the mother's endocrine system, stress or a
host of other factors, some say.
Another study completed several years ago by a Netherlands research
group posthumously compared sections of biological females' brains to
those of male-to-female transgender people. The study focused on a
nucleus bed in the hypothalamus, which is related to hormonal action.
The study showed that the biological females' nucleus beds were the
same size as the transgender women's, said Dr. Norman Spack, a
pediatric endocrinologist at Boston Children's Hospital
That research, while small and never replicated, may have provided a clue.
"There may be some alternative wiring in the transgender individual
that is not subject to being influenced by nature or nurture," Spack
said. "If there is an altered wiring, perhaps there is a gene, or some
alteration in something like a gene, that determines this switch. It
may be hereditary."
Way to go Ed!! Kudos for the cool discourse you have going on. Maybe we should reroute the TRR focus from irreverent takes on geopolitical and cultural events to a focus on the emrging alternative lifestyle world.
"All this does is to continue to weaken the crumbling foundations of this country. We have too many people focusing on a Transgender (whatever that is) and not on how to solve world reality problems such as oil/starvation/immigration/UN/
global warming/etc.
I feel sorry for the kid.
My hope, in responding to all comments was not to force anyone to think the way I and others who support these children do. My hope was to share enough accurate and non-sensationalized information about these children and their families so that, perhaps, reasonable people would choose to seek out more information on their own rather than accept random, misguided, prejudicial or insensitive rhetoric from others. I can see by these last two "brilliant" comments, that perhaps I hoped for too much.
Bobby...this child does not have an "alternative lifestyle". This child has a gender identity that apparently doesn't meet with your approval. But in the end, this is a child. Your comment and attitude only adds to the pain and trauma this child has faced and will face at the hands of people like you. I can only assume that pleases you for some reason I can't begin to understand.
Joe Camel...believe me, if there are too many people focusing on transgender issues, it's for all the wrong reasons (fear, misguided religious condemnation, ignorance, misogyny, etc.) than for the right reasons: education, treatment, support for children, youth and families, eliminating hate crimes against gender non-conforming people.
Gee...do you think any of the Presidential candidates, the Congress, the United Nations, the European Union, UNICEF, The Peace Corps, ICE, the DIA, Operation Breadbasket, OPEC/APEC, the DOE and Al Gore know that the reason we aren't solving our energy, hunger, immigration and world peace issues is because there is too much attention being paid to the challenges faced by transgender people?
I'm glad you "feel sorry for the kid"...but your comments clearly indicate that you also feel that supporting this child's gender identity is part of what's wrong in the world rather than what is RIGHT in the world.
I feel sorry for you.
I have shared as much info as anyone on the blog would need to pursue more facts so that they can at least be better informed about these children and their families. If you are more interested in simply registering disapproval of something you don't understand, then there is nothing that can be done about that.
Please be kind to these children and youth whenever you encounter them. They are doing you no harm...but your attitudes and those you teach your children can do a great deal of harm to them.
Jean you are very sensitive . Maybe too much so. I made my comments about how I was sitting back enjoying the back and forth - nothing more. You need to lighten up. It is painfully obvious that this is your "thing", but dont try to alter my words. Anyone living life out of the "norm" is alternative (by definition). That doesn't make it wrong just different. I have learned a great deal from your input. I also have learned that people who believe in a cause can be blinded and choose to decide that all are against them. I am not adding any type of trauma or pain to this person, wherever Highlands Ranch may be. Apparently you however are offended if all don't agree with your views. I don't understand how you can presume that I would enjoy seeing anyone being degraded or slandered, you know nothing of or about me, yet you casually denegrate me with your "Pleases" comment. Maybe it is time to step off of your soap box and re-evaluate.
Ignorance is bliss, it would appear.
Your words, hurtful. And why? What are you solving? Have you ever experienced what we go through? No. I fought with this for years ... wasting the prime part of my life, trying to figure out something I tried to rid myself of. I NEVER wanted this life. I never CHOSE this. I just wanted to be what was construed as normal. I now live my life as a woman, as it should be, and now have true happiness in my life for once. My heart, now filled with love! Is this coincidence? I am just an everyday, typical law-abiding citizen trying to make my way in the world. Living a normal life. Trying to make the world a better place. With love and compassion, not words tossed out in anger.
Violence is far too common against TG/TS folk. You honestly think we go out of our way to be ridiculed, beaten and treated unfairly?
You wake up in the morning, put your pants on and know who you are and do not even begin to question your gender, obviously. So, I can see why it would be hard for you to understand. Gender is one of the most fundamental things a person can have an issue with and is very difficult to deal with. I would not wish gender issues to the most vial person on Earth.
Embrace us -- Embrace humanity. You do not have to understand us -- just have compassion. Just because you cannot understand it and cannot wrap your head around it -- does not mean it is not true.
Men think they have it easy. I think it is quite the opposite. You limit yourselves -- so much -- in terms of what you can and cannot do. Cooking is not "sissy." Wearing pink is not "sissy." Gardening is not "sissy." Etc. Etc. Etc. We need to start changing our thinking in things. Why do we hold onto ages-old beliefs? Does it really, honestly look like it is working? It really is a matter of desperation, things need to change.
We need to come together in this world or we shall all fall down together.
Love and Peace to You.
In response to "freedom2learn", my reference was to children who are born with ambigious genitalia...a medically defined condition where the external genitalia are not clearly defined--an enlarged clitoris that resembles a penis, a micropenis that resembles a clitoris, bifid scrotum with undescended testicles and underdeveloped penis, congenital adrenal hyperplasia--all of which need further chromosomal studies to determine the gender of the child. Meaning when the baby is born the doctor can not definitively say "it's a boy" or "it's a girl" to the proud parents. These parents go home confused as to how to initially introduce their little one into the world and the gender confusion gets set into motion early on. I think this may be a small portion of the population that we are describing in this post but you cannot discount the fact that some of these kids enter the world without a clear path. I also believe that there are many men and women who were born into a gender that they do not understand and while we may not alway understand it, we should at least be compassionate to their struggles in society. Let's face it, sadly, we are not a nation that openly accepts difference.
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